I have a couple of vivid memories of the family room — we called it the “TV room” — in the house in which we lived until I was nine. The first was asking my mom about streaking, right during the streaking boom of 1974 — that would have made me six-years-old. I think I’d heard the song, “The Streak.” Having been a student at UC-Berkeley in the mid-60s, my mom was quite familiar with nudity on campus (ahem, witnessing it, not participating in it; her senior year roommate was a nudist).
The second is a similar memory. I don’t know what I was watching with my younger brother, Andrew, but the word “gay” was used. I remember walking into the kitchen, my brother trailing me, and asking my mom what “gay” meant.
It must have been one of those moments when a parent instinctively knows that it’s time for a sit-down chat, and that’s exactly what she did. I don’t remember exactly how she explained same-sex love to us, but I do vividly remember one thing she said. “Tony and Andrew,” she said, looking at us intently, “I want you to know that your father and I will still love you no matter whom you love. And you can always bring home, to our house, anyone you love.”
I suppose what struck my seven-or-eight-year-old self was that her statement implied that there were families in which being gay was not acceptable, in which family members were not necessarily allowed to bring home the person they loved, particularly if the lovers were of the same gender.
From there, I didn’t think much about homosexuality for many years. I didn’t know any gay kids in junior high or high school — well, at least I didn’t know any who admitted they were gay — the Edina, Minnesota of my youth wasn’t the most diverse community.
Of course, I did have gay friends, and I didn’t know it. My best friend in 9th grade, for instance, was constantly being called “fag” by others in the junior high. I didn’t think much of it, since Steve seemed not much different than I. We spent most of our time together at church, and we were both considered leaders in the youth group.
I lost touch with Steve during high school. Years later, our junior high pastor, Paul, told me that Steve had recently died of AIDS. Paul reached out to Steve’s family to offer condolences and offer to perform the memorial service, but Steve’s dad responded to Paul with vehement anger. He told Paul that he blamed Steve’s death on the church and that he would never step foot in a church again.
The same goes for high school and college. I had gay friends, but I didn’t find out they were gay until years later when they came out.
When it came to what I thought about homosexuality as a Christian, I pretty much walked the middle of the road. I’ve always thought that all persons should be afforded the same rights and no one should be discriminated against. But I also knew that the biblical prohibitions to homosexual sex should be taken seriously. And I remember quite a few debates in which I argued against homosexuality using the argument from natural law, the book of Genesis, and my own pithy deal-closer, “Look, the parts don’t fit. The plumbing’s not right. That’s how we know how God feels about it.”
Aside from that rather crass and unsophisticated argument, I didn’t talk about it much and didn’t think about it much. Confronted with a gay couple who wanted to teach Sunday school, the church staff on which I was serving in the late 1990s studied the issue, read a book (Homosexuality in the Church: Both Sides of the Debate
As I gained a little prominence as an author in the youth ministry world, people began asking me my opinion on homosexuality. I often quoted one of my seminary professors, Bill Pannell, who was involved in the civil rights movement. I had lunch with him during my last semester at seminary and as we drove back to campus he said to me, “Civil rights and abortion will be nothing compared to how the church has to deal with homosexuality. I’m glad it’s your generation and not mine who’ll have to figure that out.”
With that in mind, I always responded, “I’m holding that issue in abeyance. I haven’t made up my mind yet, and I’m in no hurry to. Homosexuality,” I would say, “I one issue that I don’t want to get wrong.”
And yet, all the time I could feel myself drifting toward acceptance that gay persons are fully human persons and should be afforded all of the cultural and ecclesial benefits that I am. (“Aha!” my critics will laugh derisively, “I knew he and his ilk were on a continuous leftward slide!”)
In any case, I now believe that GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can!) and that their monogamy can and should be sanctioned and blessed by church and state.
Well, I suppose this blogalogue will be a test of whether I have good theological and philosophical reasons for supporting the rights of GLBTQ persons to marry, or whether I’ve simply caved to the mushy inclusivity of pluralized nothingness. In either case, Rod, I’m looking forward to this conversation, and I’m praying that it is ultimately glorifying of God. (Read Rod’s reply here.)
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UnaHomer, Joel and Travis — Well said!
Just to add to what UnaHomer said about pedophilia:
Yes it is illegal now…at least in America. But it isn’t in many countries. This is extremely important to understand. Whereas homosexuality is condemned by virtually all major religions (certainly Christianity, Judaism, and Islam), pedophilia and polygamy are not. It is an undeniable fact that the Koran allows men to have 4 wives (at one time).
It is also true that the “prophet” (Mohammad) married Aisha, his favorite wife, when she was 6 years old, and consummated that marriage when she was 9. The ayatollahs in Iran teach that a girl’s first period should be in the home of her husband. As our societies in the west grow increasingly multicultural, how are we going to tell Muslims that polygamy should not be allowed, when gay marriage is? And what argument are we going to use against someone whose defense is the life example of the “prophet” himself when society already supports an action (homosexuality) that to him is punishable — according to sharia law — by stoning?
The right thing to do; the just thing to do; the righteous thing to do, is to flee all “lusts” and sexual desires that are outside the sacred bond of a committed marriage between one man and one woman. This is what God has ordained. And what God has joined together let no man put asunder. Marriage is sacred! Sex is a spiritual activity through which flows the very river of Life itself! It simply MUST be wholly confined to the sacred union of this sacred union.
Malcolm Muggeridge once said that “sex is the mysticism of the materialist, and the only possible religion in a secular state”. As such sex outside of holy matrimony is false worship. It is a desecration of that which is Holy. It is, in reality, the very worship of the Beast!
Malcolm Muggeridge once said that “sex is the mysticism of the materialist, and the only possible religion in a secular state”.
Very interesting quote
Did Tony repent yet ? Anyone know ?
This ‘experience’ and ‘memory’ stuff that Tony talks about is so ‘me-centered.’ My prayer is that he would begin to see the Scripture with a gospel centered hermeneutic that makes Jesus not only Lord but also King. We must think in a Jesus-centered way, specifically about this topic… this must be foundational to all doctrine… not experience!
WRONG! Clearly, you are not operating in the Spirit. God does not contradict himself. Romans ch 1 specifically states:Rom 1:25 For they changed the truth of God into a lie, and they worshiped and served the created thing more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause, God gave them up to dishonorable affections. For even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust toward one another; males with males working out shamefulness, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not think fit to have God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do the things not right,etc…
Having been gay at one time, and graciously delivered from that deception by the grace of God (praise His holiness!), I can speak from experience. That lifestyle does not proliferate the peace of God, but wars with it. There is no sin in His kingdom. Homosexuality is sin, clear and simple. Please reconsider and choose life with God our King.
I think the conclusion from this is that you have “caved to the mushy inclusivity of pluralized nothingness” from the simple basis that you have provided no theological reasons in support of your stance at all. The only reference to any content in the bible is found in your statement
“I’ve always thought that all persons should be afforded the same rights and no one should be discriminated against. But I also knew that the biblical prohibitions to homosexual sex should be taken seriously.”
Which shows that your opinion is not a biblically supported position, at least not as you see it; but, that your sense of everyone has rights and should be included and not made to feel left out, somehow over rides the authority of scripture. That your wisdom and convictions of right and wrong are superior to those of God. Your use of the phrase ‘fully human persons’ also puts forward the idea that how Christians act toward GLBTQ people is directly tied to our approval of their actions. Do I agree with homosexuality…no, but I also do not see gay people as sub-human people or treat them as inferior or diseased. Jesus did not treat sinners as sub-human or say that they don’t deserve human rights, but at the same time he did not condone their sin, or make allowances in right and wrong to accommodate opinions and beliefs contrary to God’s truth. Homosexuality is a sin just as is any other that people struggle with, why should this one be given special privilege among Christians, that we should embrace it?
You close saying that you now believe that “GLBTQ can live lives in accord with biblical Christianity (at least as much as any of us can)” ., but you have yet to offer one biblical reference supporting how this is possible, and so we are left with the conclusion that this decision has been made completely based on your own desire to make everyone happy and have everyone fit in as opposed to based on what God teaches us in the scriptures.
My closing argument as to why this conclusion is false, is not because the bible says it’s a sin, because as you pointed out we all struggle with sin and are not perfect, so why should homosexuals be viewed differently from you or I? The reason is the condition of the heart, there is a difference between struggling with sin, and actively taking part in it. If some one is in a homosexual relationship or marriage, they have said to the world, this is who I am , this is how I am living, and this is what I think is right. And to God they have said, I know you think this is wrong and I don’t care, I am doing this anyway, I am actively rebelling against you, and I am proud of it.
How can some one who is actively rebelling against God in their daily life be living according to biblical Christianity? How can someone who has embraced a lifestyle of sin (any sin) recognize their sin problem and come to Jesus in repentance for their sin while they hold the view that it is in fact not wrong. And if they do not see the true nature of their sin, then they also cannot rightly accept Jesus because they have not actually recognized why they need him.
As a former self-identified gay man, I can say beyond all shadow of a doubt that Tony has no idea what he’s talking about. I bought into this squishy, muddled, emotionally driven, feelings-based pro-gay revisionist theology myself for more than a decade and it nearly killed me. Then, after having a born-again experience and becoming convicted in the core of my being that God’s Word is, indeed, reliable, trustworthy and true, I started studying the Scriptures and all of the various pro-gay arguments. What I found is that they simply don’t withstand critical scrutiny.
There are many points I could comment on in Tony’s blog, but others have already done a good job of rebutting specific points. However, here is one example of how the pro-gay revisionists often set up a “straw man” argument and then proceed to knock it down as they pull on people’s heart-strings to win them over to the false doctrine.
Specifically, Tony says:
“I could feel myself drifting toward acceptance that gay persons are fully human persons and should be afforded all of the cultural and ecclesial benefits that I am.”
HUH?! Newsflash to Tony: I don’t recall anybody on the biblically orthodox side saying that people who self-identify as GLBTQ are not “fully human.” Here, Tony simply regurgitates a pro-gay talking point and puts words into the mouths of those who hold to Biblical truth on this important matter.
Fact is, it’s not a “package of benefits” that somehow makes us “fully human”—be they cultural or ecclesiastical. No, what makes us “fully human” is that each of us bears His image as either male and female—mysteriously reflecting Him in the diversity that is inherent to our biological sex, and yet coming together in a complementary unity that not only speaks to the Trinitarian nature of the God-head but also to the profound and glorious relationship between Christ and His bride, the Church.
St. Paul calls this a great mystery, and I submit that this is the core of what makes us “fully human” and speaks to why we are called to treat every person we come across in our journey on this planet with the dignity and respect they deserve as image bearers of God—who are therefore of inestimable value and worth in His sight. So much so that He Himself as the Logos and Second Person of the Trinity—Jesus—died for us in our sin and iniquity in order to reconcile us back unto Himself.
When Tony settles for a definition of humanness that merely speaks to certain benefits and “rights,” he misses the larger and more important point of who we are and how we are called to steward our bodies as gendered beings who bear God’s image and bring forth new life also in that image.
I know from personal experience that pursuing homosexuality falls short of how I was created to function, who I was created to be, and the imago Dei I am called to bear. When self-professing Christians like Tony buy into a revisionist theology that fundamentally denies the foundational truth God puts forth in the opening chapters of His Word to us, then he helps to cement the 3-5% of the population that self-identifies as GLBTQ into tombs of death.
The Gospel message is a compassionate and loving message that proclaims not only reconciliation with God from whom we are estranged by our sin and rebellion, but most wonderfully, a radical transformation and freedom from the bondages of our fleshly nature. As someone who has been set free from these chains, I know only too well that the sexual and relational brokenness inherent to the homosexual and “transgender” conditions are simply one or two tactics that the Enemy employs to destroy the image of God that we humans bear.
As one who is in a position of spiritual leadership, surely Tony knows that he’s being held to a higher standard than others. I pray that he will come to his senses on this critical issue—critical because it gets to the heart of the imago Dei that we humans bear and express in our sex and sexuality, and critical because the lives of so many that depend on pastors like Tony to tell them the Gospel truth and not lead them astray hang in the balance.
I met the Lord Jesus Christ 4 years ago as a 30 yr old gay man. For the first time in my life I felt Loved and Forgiven, He came into my heart and washed all my pain away. I ran hard and fast after this Jesus and He very quickly told me He did not want me to be gay or indulge in that lifestyle any longer. He told me “this is not who I created you to be.” I had been gay my whole life, as far back as my memory goes I was attracted to the same-sex. I thought I was born like that. He showed me through His own eyes how disgusting these acts were, these things I did with my body as a gay man with other men. He let me know how much it grieved His Heart. From that day on I turned away from being gay, no longer wanting to hurt my God like that ever again. He showed me love like I never imagined was even possible to experience while alive here in this body! Our Lord Jesus Christ loves each and everyone of us, died for each and everyone of us, but is calling each and everyone of us out of darkness into His Marvelous Light. He does not want us in bondage to our enemy, He desires us to be free. I never thought I would be saying these things but I have found the truth and the truth has set me free from a life of sexual slavery. I pray that you will ask the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal to you the truth. Ask Him to make Himself real to you and convict you of your sin. You are deceived if you think He is ok with you living this way. He loves you so much and wants you to be His and His alone. You cannot serve two masters. You must choose! Trust me whatever pain you have to go through, however hard it will be, it will be worth it I promise. I pray you come out of these lies of the enemy in Jesus Name! He has confirmed this to me not just with the Bible but with His Holy Spirit. Thank you for taking the time to listen to me and consider what I’m saying, I come to you as a brother in Christ, I come to you in Love not in Judgement. Ask God for the Truth, please?
Caleb and John,
You are truly two encouragements in my faith walk. I have never suffered with this sin personally, but I respect that you two heard God’s call and responded and were subsequently shown grace. My prayer for both of you is that you will continue in the faith, as I know you will, and that grace from our Lord Jesus will be with you in this life and the next.
Your brother,
Zach
Gay Marriage is Crazy!
“Ye that love the LORD, hate evil…” —Psalm 97:10
By David J. Stewart
Any child knows that God created Adam and Eve; NOT, Adam and Steve! The very notion of two homosexuals getting married is repulsive and disgusting. In Romans 1:26 God calls homosexual “love”… vile affections, i.e., morally reprehensible affections. God’s Word condemns homosexuality, which is why Sodomites today are relentlessly trying to corrupt the Bible. Romans 1:25 told us they’d do this, “Who changed the truth of God into a lie…”
Gay marriage is NO marriage at all in the eyes of God. Mark 10:9 plainly states that marriages are made in Heaven… “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” God will not honor a sinful marriage between two lesbians or homosexuals. The entire idea of same-sex-unions (i.e., gay marriage) is foolish, absurd, and most of all, unbiblical. We are a spiritually destitute people in America!
One of the best secular arguments against homosexual marriages is the fact that a child NEEDS both a male and female role image in their developmental stage. For a child to grow up healthy and normal, BOTH male and female parental roles are required. A child who grows up with two lesbian parents, will grow up confused, having been denied the privilege of a NORMAL home. Homosexuality is NOT an alternative lifestyle; but rather, a sinful lifestyle. It’s not “a new kind of family” as the TV networks propagate; but is in reality a sinful kind of family. Homosexuality is a horrible sin, which brought the destruction of God upon the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Although some people have pointed out to me that God destroyed Sodom for other sins besides homosexuality (Ezekiel 16:49), Jude 1:7 plainly states that God destroyed Sodom for sexual sins, including that of going after “strange flesh” (a clear reference to the unnatural behavior of homosexuality).
Furthermore, Genesis 19:1-9 gives us explicit details about an angry mob of homosexuals in Sodom, who were about to break down Lot’s front door and rape the male guests (i.e., the angels). Genesis 19:4 reveals that Sodom was saturated with homosexuals… “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter.” hence the term, “sodomite.” In addition, Romans Chapter one is a solid indictment against the sin of homosexuality. The fact that two homosexuals cannot produce natural children is evidence enough, that something is VERY WRONG AND UNNATURAL with being a homosexual.
Homosexuality is a sin, which has led to the CRAZY practice of artificial insemination. Please read, Gay Men and Lesbians Utilizing Infertility Clinics to Have Babies. Think about how immoral and crazy this is! Two lesbians get married, and then pay a complete stranger, a man, to donate his sperm to artificially inseminate one or both of the women in a medical clinic. So while the two lesbians are having lesbian sex, their babies are the result of artificial insemination by a man they’ll probably never even meet. How crazy is that? Then there’s the case of two homosexual men living together, who pay a woman to be artificially inseminated with one of their sperm cells, so they can be fathers? Folks, this stuff belongs on The Outer Limits! It just goes to show that when mankind disobeys God’s Word, things get crazy.
END
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Bush cheers ‘gay’ church after ‘Marriage Week’
Attempts to please family advocates, homosexuals baffle both groups
November 12, 2003
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com
Not long after he endorsed “Marriage Protection Week,” President Bush sent a letter of congratulations to a denomination founded by homosexual activists that performs more than 6,000 same-sex “weddings” each year.
The president wrote to the founding congregation in Los Angeles of the Metropolitan Community Churches, led by leading homosexual activist Rev. Troy D. Perry, on the occasion of its 35th anniversary.
“By encouraging the celebration of faith and sharing of God’s love and boundless mercy, churches like yours put hope in people’s hearts and a sense of purpose in their lives,” Bush said in his Oct. 14 missive. “This milestone provides an opportunity to reflect on your years of service and to rejoice in God’s faithfulness to your congregation.”
So sad to hear a Christian make this comment. It’s not homosexuality – which means same sex attraction – it’s sodomy. The only way a man can participate in the act required of a “homosexual” act is to commit sodomy. For women, it’s more about emotional connection, but the sexual act is perverted in various manners of either fake “male parts” or oral sex. Thus no matter how you look at it, you cannot have monogamy be used in this conversation because you would not know how to have such a perverted sexual view of the “married” monogamous lifestyle. It’s impossible. Only if you have experienced an act of perverted sex would you even consider pursuing it as a “monogamous” option, yet if you ask any person involved in homosexuality if they “waited” until they were married to have “sex” with the “one”, not one person would be able to say no.
Lust is in the mind, and is just as sinful as outside the mind with a body only. So in order for the supposed monogamy to exist in the eyes of God, God would have said “As long as you only have sex with a “homo or hetero” person inside marraige, it’s allowed, and not fornication or adultery” But God didn’t state it that way. Jesus, who is God said it as “A man shall cleave unto his WIFE(woman) until death do us part and let no man(man or woman) put it asunder”. Brief summary of Matthew 6, but Jesus states that any act of sex outside of marraige is adultery, and any act of sex before marraige is fornication…so..how could anyone even come to a conclusion about “sodomy” being ok ever? Only through perverted actions of immorality, which is why sodomy got it’s name…from Sodom and Gomorrah. Oy…the logic, er I mean lousy logic of thinking that homosexuality is ok in any frame reference. In truth, there is no such thing. It’s either you are a sodomist, or committing perverted sexual acts as described in Romans 1. Homosexuality isn’t even a biblical term, but it’s a term coined to define those who commit perverse sexual acts with members of the same gender. Let’s stick to the truth. Sexual sin is sin. Homo or fornication or adultery or incest or beastiality. All are sexual sin. Pretty simple.
Praise the Lord for those who have gotten saved from the sodomy and lifestyle, spoken up on here. I’m so glad you found Christ! I pray that you don’t ever let someone who is this messed up – as Tony is right now on this issue – tell you that you are not “changed” or are free to live the wrong way with God’s blessing. Thank you for speaking up on here!
Jesus changes all of us to be more like Him, no matter the sin, and His love and grace overrules any sin in the heart of those who repent. I praise God that you have come out of that lifestyle. Pray for my friend “X” who is a man who has chosen the homosexual lifestyle and tries to say it’s ok as a Christian..oy. Pray for those who are being led into sin via this article, that they will not follow this man’s advice.
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