When I was growing up in a moderate, centrist church — somewhere between mainline Christianity and evangelicalism — Original Sin was a given. I first learned about it in youth group, and we regularly talked about it. Actually, it’s more accurate to say that we talked about a life with Christ, and the notion of Original Sin was in the background. It was assumed. And I cannot remember that it was ever debated.
In other words, I assumed that the doctrine of Original Sin was a biblical notion, and that all Christians accepted it as gospel truth. Of course, neither is true.
In college, Original Sin was also assumed by the Campus Crusaders and Navigators who ministered to me, as well as in the little bible church that I attended. In fact, here’s a telling section from that church’s current web page on doctrine:
Man (Anthropology)
Man was created in the image of God to enjoy friendship with Him (
Genesis 1:26). Man sinned and his fellowship with God was broken (
Genesis 3). Man is now deceitful and desperately wicked (
Jeremiah 17:9).
He has the capacity for all sin and lives his life independent of his
Creator. In his natural rebellious state, his destiny is to spend
eternity totally separated from God in the lake of fire prepared for
the devil and his angels (
II Thessalonians 1:8;
Revelation 20:11-15).
But, while in college, I also took at class on the theology of Augustine from an eccentric professor, Charles Stinson, and therein I learned that the great father of Western theology was the author of the doctrine of Original Sin. Of course, Augustine was not making it up ex novo, but was taking as his inspiration the account of creation in Genesis 3 and certain Pauline texts.
In seminary, I learned from John Thompson that John Calvin and his theological heirs reified the notion of Original Sin and that it hadn’t played much of a role in medieval and Scholastic theology.
And sometime later, I discovered that whole branches of the Christian family tree — most notably, the Orthodox Church — has never embraced Original Sin.
I have come to reject the notion of Original Sin. I consider it neither biblically, philosophically, nor scientifically tenable. And I’m going to spend this week blogging about why I’ve rejected it. I look forward to hearing your thoughts…
(HT: Richard Beck for inspiring me.)
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R. Young
The thing about God asking us to do what is impossible for us to do is this, the only way that we would be able to do that is if we went through Christ Jesus. “None can come to the father except by me” Therefore by making the only way for us to get through this life and be holy is by going through the forgiveness offered by Jesus. If there were another way then Jesus was indeed a liar and not without sin.
I do see the need to continue in this “silly hypothetical argument” and I hope that you will see the merit behind it.
But first I will answer your question. Where to infants go when they die?
I don’t know. I pray to God that they go to heaven, but I fully realize that in accordance with everything in scripture they indeed deserve hell. Please realize that I do not say that without sadness. I have two younger brothers that died before they were born. I pray to God that they are in heaven waiting to meet me and my family, however if they are not and God saw fit that they go to Hell, then God is still God and his will is still just.
Now on to my hypothetical question. Please bear with me I am simply putting forth the logic that you use.
IF it is indeed possible for a human today to live a life without sin then what Jesus did here on earth is nothing special and chances are he wasn’t the son of God, but simply a good man who never sinned.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me
IF men can go through life then they can make it to heaven without Jesus because we are only separated from God because of sin. Therefore Jesus would have been a liar and the entire Bible thrown to waist.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Rob
Please realize that we are simply speaking out what we believe. This blog was put here so that we can debate these things. We are not trying to bully but it would be wrong for us to go through this and never correct a brother or sister in Christ if we saw them believing something that is against the Christian faith.
As for trying to prove that the Bible is indeed the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God, we can not. Because it is as you say a matter of faith.
Please do not take any offense to this next part I do not mean it out of meanness.
Prove that you have a brain. (once again only an analogy) Have you touched it? Seen it? Therefore you believe on faith that you have a brain, yet you can not prove it unless you crack open your skull and try to see it.
You see I believe that I serve an all knowing, all powerful God that protected his word for us today. I have to believe that the entire Bible is fact, truth, and completely accurate. I have to believe that it is the word of God. If I don’t then I can’t believe that I have a soul, I can’t believe in a heaven, or in a Christ, or even in the God of the Bible. Because it is all a story that is used to teach us to be good.
If you don’t believe, that is your prerogative. However my prerogative is to go throughout the world spreading the gospel.
P.S. I don’t think Ghandi would have like Christ if he saw how Christ treated the religious leaders that were leading people astray.
In reponse to Rob the Rev’s following statement: “Hey Chris Russell,
Tim from Orlando, Keanon O’Keefe -
I am not intimidated by your arrogant, self-righteous, fire and
brimstone threatening, bible thumping bullying. I know what my
relationship with God is and it does not resemble anything that you
three religious far-right bullies have said.
Without using quotes from the bible, and thereby making a circular
argument, prove that it is the infallible, inerrant, literal word of
God, please. To say the bible or any book is the word of God is a
statement of faith, not fact. Since you are making the assertion that
the bible is the word of God the burden of proving it so is your
obligation. You choose to believe by faith that the bible is the word
of God and that is your perogative. Many other people choose not to
so believe and that is there perogative.
I agree with what Ghandi said, “I like your Christ. I do not like
your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” ”
Well, this is Tim from Orlando and I would like to ask you where I
was arrogant, how I am self-righteous, how I threatened you with
“fire and brimstone”, or bullied you with Bible thumping?
Also, how is it that you paint me with derogatory terms such as
“religious far-right bully” when I gave you no such reason to do so?
All I did was reply to you on your own terms and I quote you:
“Yes, Tim, I know the bible. I used to be like you, brainwashed in
the “orthodox” faith of a fundi far-right religion. But now I think
for myself and no longer accept the bible as the literal, infallible
word of god with its contradictory, irreconcilable images of God. I
abandoned my need to protect it so that I could accept what its core
message: God is love and he will save everyone either in this world
or the next. Yes, I believe in universal salvation for all. Try
reading something outside your comfort zone like the book, “If Grace
is True: Why God Will Save Every Person” by Gulley and Mulholland.
…and I replied:
“I’m sorry. I apperently misunderstood what your title meant. I
thought you were a Reverend. My bad.
(Tim from Orlando)
P.S. If you think for yourself, why do you need that book to back you
up? I personally only need to sniff garbage to be alerted that it is
garbage. So I won’t be reading that book any time soon. The Word of
God is good enough for me, thank you very much.”
If you examine your own comments, wasn’t it you who said I was
“brainwashed in the “orthodox” faith of a fundi far-right religion”?
And although it was nice of you to include your former self in that
category, you built on that to imply that I had the same problems as
you concerning the Word of God. I can not allow you to project your
difficulties with faith onto me like that. Surely you can understand
that. I simply do not accept the doctrine of universal salvation for
all, and that is based on my own study of the Bible, which I have
believed in since I was saved at the tender age of 19 years, old
enough to think on my own.
I also do not feel compelled to read that book you recommended as I
have done enough study on the subject matter to be satisfied with
what I’ve learned. The Bible is my comfort zone and I prefer to stay
with that, no matter how you feel on that subject. I say what I mean,
and I mean what I say. Compared to the Scripture, that book you
recommended smells foul to me, and I won’t be intimidated into
reading it. But again, thank you for the recommendation anyway.
As for proving the Word of God to be the Word of God, I have 2
responses:
First, prove to me it isn’t.
Second, wasn’t it you who said, and I quote: “And to those who feel
the obligation to “Defend the Word of God” why don’t you let God
defend it if it is what you say it is. Isn’t God capable of doing
so?”
Therefore, I’ll take your own advice and defer to God.
Tim from Orlando
Chris Russell on January 29, 2009 6:53 PM posted: “Rob. Please realize that we are simply speaking out what we believe. This blog was put here so that we can debate these things. We are not trying to bully but it would be wrong for us to go through this and never correct a brother or sister in Christ if we saw them believing something that is against the Christian faith.”
Chris, you hold to a particular interpretive view of the Christian faith that is conservative and fundamentalist, however it is not the exclusive and only valid view of the Christian faith. You are entitled to YOUR interpretation of the Christian faith based on YOUR interpretation of the bible. You are NOT entitled to use that view as an exclusive rule and standard by which you presume to judge someone elses’ spiritual belief system, be it Christian or otherwise, and try to bully and browbeat them to conform to yours.
Chris posted: “As for trying to prove that the Bible is indeed the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God, we can not. Because it is as you say a matter of faith.”
And as your belief in the bible IS a matter of faith it is objectively no better or no worse than anyone else’s faith belief about the bible.
Chris posted: “Please do not take any offense to this next part I do not mean it out of meanness.
Prove that you have a brain. (once again only an analogy) Have you touched it? Seen it? Therefore you believe on faith that you have a brain, yet you can not prove it unless you crack open your skull and try to see it.”
When I had brain surgery the surgeon saw my brain and assured me that it was intact and functioning. I also use it to think with, animate my body and experience my enviornment. That is proof enough for me.
Christ posted: “You see I believe that I serve an all knowing, all powerful God that protected his word for us today. I have to believe that the entire Bible is fact, truth, and completely accurate. I have to believe that it is the word of God. If I don’t then I can’t believe that I have a soul, I can’t believe in a heaven, or in a Christ, or even in the God of the Bible. Because it is all a story that is used to teach us to be good.”
This is a statement of faith that you are entitled to hold to. However none of what you have said is provable fact.
“If you don’t believe, that is your prerogative. However my prerogative is to go throughout the world spreading the gospel.”
My perogative is to believe as God leads me to believe through the reason and intellect he has endowed me with. I have no obligation to believe as you have chosen to believe.
http://community.beliefnet.com/northernimager
Rob
Sorry to hear that you had brain surgery. I did not know about that and did not mean to strike a nerve if i did. I was not saying that i didn’t think you had a brain I was simply using an example to show that there are things we know to be true that aren’t “proven” The majority of people have never seen their brain or had anyone else see it.
“This is a statement of faith that you are entitled to hold to. However none of what you have said is provable fact”
may i also point out that nothing you have said either is a provable fact.
I think that we have come to point where we must simply agree that we will disagree. Each of us will be held accountable on the day of judgement for the things that we believe. May we go our separate ways and allow God to sort it out in his own time.
Please realize that at no time did i ever intend to “bully” or ‘browbeat” anyone. I have simply questioned what people believe as they have questioned my belief. I have not used what I believe as the rule and standard, I have used the word of God. And i have done it out of love and for no other reason. I wish to give people the opportunity to accept what I believe to be true, not because i believe it but because it is in the word of God, so that as many as possible may be saved, just as i have.
May God bless
P.S. Are you a reverend? I am just curious.
religious far-right bullies? I like that… interesting that you choose drop down to our level and insult us?? I guess the power of the keyboard reaches farther than I thought, when grown men feel bullied by the exposition of scripture.
To R. Young, who said:
“So yes, I do believe, and see no prohibition in scripture, that man, theoretically, can live without sin
R. Young, the idea that we can live without sin is, like Pelagius was told, is heretical.
1 John 1:8-10
(8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Maybe that page fell out, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt there.
If you choose to abandon Scripture, we can’t help you. You have made a decision, we have done all we are obligated to do. We provided you with scriptural support, you denied the validity of the Bible. Your arguments never respond to the exact questions asked, you play logic games and dance around with the skill of a politician.
It is a sad day when “Christians” abandon the Bible and its inherent truths. What discontent the apostles and reformers would have if they watched the Body of Christ remove its vital organs for the sake of humanistic appeal.
I commend men like Chris and Tim for contending earnestly for the faith, as we are commanded to do in 2nd Timothy and I will feel proud to stand along side them in continual worship to God in paradise.
2 Timothy 4:1-4
(1) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(2) Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
(3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
(4) And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Chris Russell posted on January 30, 2009 1:09 AM: “Rob, Sorry to hear that you had brain surgery. I did not know about that and did not mean to strike a nerve if i did. I was not saying that i didn’t think you had a brain I was simply using an example to show that there are things we know to be true that aren’t “proven” The majority of people have never seen their brain or had anyone else see it.”
No, you didn’t strike a nerve (bad pun, lol). However I thought you analogy between proving that the bible is the word of God and proving that anyone has a brain was logically invalid and easily overcome.
Chris posted: “May i also point out that nothing you have said either is a provable fact.”
I agree. I’m glad you see that. What I or anyone believes outside of the realm of science is not provable. Belief is a faith statement, not a fact statement. And we all must be humble enough to acknowledge this and consider the possibliblity our beliefs in part or in whole are not valid. This humility is what I desire that you, Tim from Orlando, Keanon O’Keefe, and A.Walker would adopt along with the others of your tribe. Be willing to question your certainity about your beliefs. Be willing to read and study books and listen to people that would challenge your beliefs and get outside your belief comfort zone. You may learn something. Admit the possibility that you do not have a monopoly on truth.
Chris posted: “I think that we have come to point where we must simply agree that we will disagree. Each of us will be held accountable on the day of judgement for the things that we believe. May we go our separate ways and allow God to sort it out in his own time.”
How about agree to disagree agreeable.
Chris posted: “Please realize that at no time did I ever intend to “bully” or ‘browbeat” anyone. I have simply questioned what people believe as they have questioned my belief. I have not used what I believe as the rule and standard, I have used the word of God. And I have done it out of love and for no other reason. I wish to give people the opportunity to accept what I believe to be true, not because i believe it but because it is in the word of God, so that as many as possible may be saved, just as i have.”
Many people do not view God, the bible, sin, grace, salvation, etc in the same way as you, as I have already stated. Also remember love does not force or coerce others, loves woes and wins.
Chris posted: “May God bless”
Thanks, I need all the blessing I can get.
Chris posted: “P.S. Are you a reverend? I am just curious.”
At the end of many of my posts here I have inserted my Bnet profile page. Check it out to find an answer to your question. http://community.beliefnet.com/northernimager
Without original sin we cannot have Christ, the second Adam to die for the sins of all mankind. Since all are under sin, all can be saved through Christ. Please see Romans 5 for a complete explanation.
Tony, I grew up similar to you and also was in CCC back in the 90′s… the answer to their faulty theology is not to reject the Law and the Gospel. The answer is to embrace that we are sinners and cling to Christ as our substitute, believing that His blood covers our sin completely, no matter what sin that may be or will be in the future. He rose from the dead and proved that His Word is true, witnessed by hundreds in the flesh… his doctrine and his apostle’s doctrine is trustworthy because the resurrection is historically verifiable. That Christ rose fromt the dead could easily be proven in a court of law. Please repent of your wicked doctrine and cling to Christ our only hope to escape the wrath of God — you are leading thousands to Hell.
~ Mark Priestap
Doug Pagitt said: “I know a book that is great on this subject – A Christianity Worth Believing”
nothing like shameless self-promotion! lol
“Belief comfort zone” phrase was used by Tony Jones.
Mr. Jones, to get elected by God, we get into just an uncomfortable zone, it isn’t funny. Recognizing and admitting our sin is contrary to our nature. (“Every man will proclaim his own righteousness”).
It that uncomfortable zone is Satan’s battle keep us and it is anything but a comfort zone. Then when God sees our brokenness over our sin, a contrite, sorrowful, remorse, then, and only will he save us. He does the saving, He does the electing. When we offer him nothing but our sin…when we come to him for NO other reason but for righteousness (propitiation) will he save us and then reveal himself to us and let us know this is what took place. You, my friend, will never know this unless you humble yourself. You are building wrath on yourself.
2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
James 4:6 Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
I’d like to say you are putting off crying out to God for His truth and that is out and out rebellion, but that is an understatement about you. You are working for the enemy big time. Since God is Holy, he must call sin sin and punish it. Be thankful for his Holiness; that means He can be trusted to be true to His promises
jxut4k
This is apostasy.
This Emergent Church is denying God’s Word.
Judgment will be visited upon such that “preach” against Jesus Christ (the Word of God made flesh).
I find the back-and-forth blogging a bit bizarre. Communicating with people we have never met on a topic that can stir up so much negative emotions can really feel like an exercise in futility. I clicked on the link to this topic from an e-mail I had received from Worldview Weekend. This was a subject I hadn’t discussed in many years having never been satisfactorily convinced either way and ultimately deciding that how I came to be a sinner mattered little. The important thing, to me, is what can be done about it. I believe that most all of us can agree on the solution. Like the man standing on a bridge with his pants on fire, how his pants came to be on fire is not the pressing issue. However, I thought I would give it another chance and see if I could be convinced one way or the other on the topic.
Mr. Russell, I would like to thank you for the graciousness and respect in your replies. In Your last post (to me) you stated “IF it is indeed possible for a human today to live a life without sin then what Jesus did here on earth is nothing special and chances are he wasn’t the Son of God, but simply a good man who never sinned.”
First, I beleve you were a little flippant here, as anyone who lives without sin would indeed be something special. Even some of the eyewitnessess of the life of Christ didn’t believe he was without sin. Is it possible Enoch did not sin? He walked with God –he pleased God- and was mysteriously taken up.
Second, there are no chances that Jesus wasn’t the Son of God. He was the Son of God not because he didn’t sin; He was the Son of God because He was the Son of God. So even if a man lived without sinning, he still could not be mankind’s sacrifice. Justice called for a greater sacrifice.
Finally, although the answer to the infant mortality question may be unsatisfactory, I must praise you for your bravery and integrity. Saying “I don’t know” is a courageous thing to say and I think it demonstrates your deep faith in God.
To Mr. O’Keefe – again I say that the debate is not whether we are sinful or not but simply how we came to be sinners. And yes, some of the pages of my bible do fall out due to wear, you superior, self-righteous, jerk.
After I had posted that last comment, I regretted that I had resorted to hasty name calling rather than pause and express myself with a little more diplomacy, when I realized; the comments Mr. O’Keefe post smack of the impulsiveness and haughty pride associated with the young. I visited his blog and learned that my assumption was correct. He is only 21 years young.
Mr. O’Keefe, your zeal reminds me of the character Mandy Moore played in the movie “Saved” who threw her bible at Jenna Malone and shouted, “I am FILLED with Christ’s love!” Your effectiveness in defending the gospel, as you understand it, is blunted by your contempt for the ones you communicate with. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
The bible foretold in Acts 20 that terrrible wolves would come from among you and try to take followers to themselves and towards the end of the end a Great Falling away that would lead to sever judgment. 2 Thess. What you are are doing to scripture now in the last few years is not unique, or cutting edge or even moderatly surprising Tony and friends and supporters. We knew that one day this would happen as so it is. More will be added to your numbers as you fall farther away from the truth that you stamp out as though you have the right to. God saw it coming in the future. Paul back in his day warned for 3 YEARS DAY AND NIGHT w/ tears that heretics and liars would come with deciet and trickery, so he wanted to warn his ( God’s) blessed church. And that has been the case and we know that an Imposer to come will surround himself with all the reigons of the world including your fake christianity that has no power, just an empty form, tha tlaskc true power bc you attempted to kick him out. All you doubters and Christ rejectors of the “Conversation” and the false religons and all your false gods can gather togather as “One” and as evolving towards godhood, just as the bible and God predicted, The lie of Godhood. Romans 1. You aren’t surprising us authentic christians that you couldn’t pry the truth away from us if you tried to; we are not unaware. You are simply doing that which the Holy Spirit told us via his word that you have little to no respect for. If you were you, I would camp out in Romans 5 adn 1 Corinthians and settle up with your prideful self to accept OS and the Savior who came to set us free from physical death and spiritual death. Open your bibles and begin reading them as though you life depended on it. Pay special attention to Revelation 17 and see what the outcome of this religious group who thumbs their nose at the Truth, who is not just a concept, but a person. Come away from the apostasy before it is too late.
To all of those who are arguing for the sufficiency and authority of scripture (with which I totally agree), all I can say is that you are wasting your time. You cannot argue or convince anyone regarding the authority of God’s word. Apart from a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit, all men will deny this. You cannot argue from scripture when those whom you argue with deny it’s authority. The cornerstone of the emergent church is that scripture means whatever you want it to mean. This attitude is to be expected from fallen creatures (yes, those creatures who have been affected by original sin). I can talk all day regarding clear scripture on this doctrine, such as Ephesians 2, Psalm 51:5, Romans 5, etc. But it will do no good to those who will not submit to it’s authority. I fully expect a flurry of criticism following this post, but again, that’s expected. Nothing wrong with answering questions or dialoguing. But God must do a work in one’s heart, because the natural man does not accept these things (1 Cor. 2:14). Just keep praying for those who are lost, and keep preaching “Christ and Him Crucified.” That is the power of God unto salvation. As for Mr. Jones, he truly is misguided, and will have to answer to God for misleading so many. But we are to love him and pray for him, as well as those who blindly follow. Arguing is not the answer.
R Young
When I talked about the chance of Christ not being the son of God I was going to the extreme of what people could be deceived in believing. By no means do I believe that he wasn’t the son of God.
I would like to say that it is a good example to use of Enoch. I must say though that I would find it harder to believe that he never sinned even one time. After all he did live to be 365. I am only 22 (Please do not write me off as being too young to debate someone with more life experience than myself) and have sinned more than my fair share. I would have to say that for a man to live that long and never sin would have to be a direct result of God causing him not to sin. Especially seeing how his time was full of violence and evil.
From what I hear from you I believe that you are a good God fearing man. I don’t know your view on the Bible though and since there are multiple views on it, allow me to share mine.
I believe that the Bible is the direct word of God. I believe that even though it is thousands of years old, God has kept it pure in making sure that it conveyed exactly what he intended. I believe that the bible is completely accurate and should be taken literally with much studying. I do realize that some areas are cultural and may not apply as heavily today as they did at that time. However I feel that these areas should only be determined after much study.
Overall I believe that the word of God is truth and should be studied.
I say all that because it is important for us to understand each other’s beliefs in this area.
So, since I believe that the word of God is correct I will use it to show that men are all sinful.
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Romans 3:11
None is righteous, no not one; no one understands; no one seeks God.
I believe that these verses speak for themselves. It is a hard thing to understand that we all born sinful. The bible says that “the sins of the father pass down to the son” That sin, I believe, is our sinful nature. I am fully aware of how believing this does bring up other issues, such as age of accountability and such. All I can say in these issues is that God is God and I am not, and there is no way for me to fully understand his ways until he allows me to understand.
Thank you for the compliment on my faith in God. I do agree with you that it is more important to recognize that we are sinners than how we became sinners. But I also think that “iron sharpens iron” and that by diving deeper into the word of God we come to these sort of issues that should be debated among believers so that we both may become sharper in the word of God.
Dangerous ground Tony, go back to scripture
Dangerous ground Tony, go back to scripture
R. Young.
Its interesting you describe me as impulsive, and haughty, treating others with contempt. Are you not treating me with the same contempt you chastise me for? Instead of embracing a fellow believer who holds Truth and Scripture to such a high standard.
Does my age make what i say untrue? Does my age change the words in the Bible?
NO, you are committing the argumentative fallacy of Ad hominem, where you attack the person rather than the argument.
It matters little what age I am, many have done great things in their youth, sometimes because of their ZEAL, because of their PASSION. A single example is John Calvin, who penned the Institutes of the Christian Religion at 23.
Would Paul have been fully effective without his zeal for Christ? Could Martin Luther have helped break the bonds of the Roman Catholic church without passion? Could any of the Apostles continued on without their full love for their God?
I see one of the things I love most, my Faith, being tampered and assaulted by those who wish to appeal to the wants of man.
You sir have no right, no grounds, and certainly no evidence to label any of those terms to someone you have never met, but only communicated with online.
Of all the people arguing here, we are the LEAST HAUGHTY! We are the ones stating that we are in fact totally depraved, lacking the ability to obtain righteousness in the eyes of God apart from Him only. Our argument is the least human, the least prideful of ourselves, the least edifying to the sinful nature of man.
If you did know me you would realize that i continually communicate with those around me, that i see what I am, I see my sinful nature, I see my lack of ability to please God through works, and I fully understand that the only thing that I have is Christ. I hold no sense of false pride for myself or my abilities, hold no selfish esteem for the things i do or participate in.
Ask Mr. Chris Russel, because he is one of my closest friends and pastor, who by the way, is also 22 years young, and holds many, if not all of the same views as myself and has no issue with my “impulsive zeal” for scripture.
I will not heed to the unrealistic plea that my age makes me less effective, but will continue to contend for the Faith, in what ever medium, media, or method God leads me to.
Tony Jones’ article, “Original Sin: A Depraved Idea” is a depraved idea from his vain imagination, and demonstrates how easy it is to be conditioned and deceived into believing a lie. Worst yet, Tony Jones is calling God and His written word a liar:
“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us” (1 John 1:8-10. See also Romans 3:9-20).
We are witnessing the Biblical warnings unfold before our very eyes:
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths” (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
People do not have to be deceived. Stand strong for Jesus Christ. Study God’s written word and trust it over-and-above what men with depraved ideas say.
Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
Amen Bud. Just more evidence of just how far from sound doctrine the emergent church is heading. To say original sin is unbiblical boots the need for our Savior, right out the door. Which actually is right of the alley of the emergent church proponenets. Jude knew what he was talking about:
Jude 1 3-4: Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Tony, for your own good, and the salvation of others that hangs in the balance, RETURN TO SOUND DOCTRINE MAN!!
My comment is given in the spirit of love and I pray it is taken as such. I only had to scan through a few of the comments here to know people are acting according to the flesh and not the Word of God. We cannot erase sin. Only Jesus can. In fact He has already and we must adhere to sound doctrine given by the Holy Spirit of God and not our own ideas. Sin is apparent as I look around me. How can anyone deny it? Tony Jones or anyone else. What we need to do is accept the fact that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and all our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is this fact that leads us to repentance and belief in the only one who has power over sin. And if we believe the Word, then we believe that it is Christ who lives in us because our flesh was crucified on the cross with Him. To take away sin is to take away Christ and to take away Christ is to serve the devil. Do not be deceived, all will be judged according to what they have done whether it be good or bad. Fear God! Believe and repent and turn away from sin and allow the Holy Spirit to change your life! Give your burdens to Jesus because He cares for you! Examine yourself. Do not think that you cannot fall from grace. But we know that where there is sin, grace abounds all the more. Praise God and worship the King with your bodies. This is our spiritual act of worship.
and R. Young
Do not let anyone look down on you because you are young, but be an example for other believers in your speech, behavior, love, faithfulness, and purity. (1 Timothy 4:12)
Scripture speaks for itself about Tony Jones’ departure from it, and how believers are to respond to false teachers:
SEPARATION FROM ALL RELIGIOUS APOSTASY IS COMMANDED OF GOD
SEPARATION FROM FALSE TEACHERS AND FROM RELIGIOUS APOSTASY WORD STUDY
Definitions below are specific to the word usage per each verse. The following two resources were used to determine definitions: The Complete Word Study New Testament by Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. and Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Romans 16:17).
Ø “mark” (4648) – literally, to spy out; to look at, behold, watch, contemplate
Ø “divisions” (1370) – literally, a standing apart; a separate faction
Ø “offenses” (4625) – occasions of stumbling, teaching of things contrary to sound doctrine
Ø “doctrine” (1322) – teaching; that which has been taught
Ø “learned” (3129) – be increased in knowledge
Ø “avoid” (1578) – to turn away from, to turn aside
Ø Note under “heretic” (141) – See Ro 16:17 where clearly one still belongs to the fellowship, but whom the fellowship eventually had to exclude.
“A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject” (Titus 3:10).
Ø “heretic” (141) – pertaining to choice, capable of choice; hence an opinion, especially a self-willed opinion, which is substituted for submission to the power of truth, and leads to division and the formation of sects.
Ø “admonition” (3559) – literally, a putting in mind; of that which is to be administered for the correction of one who creates trouble in the church; of remonstrance, reproof, blame, as required.
Ø “reject” (3868) – to decline, refuse, avoid
“If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds” (2 John 10).
Ø “doctrine” (1322) – teaching; that which has been taught
Ø “receive” (2983) – to take persons, or receive persons
Ø “house” (3614) – dwelling, residence, family abode
Ø “bid” (3004) – to speak, to say
Ø “Godspeed” (5463) – to rejoice, to give greeting; the author of 2 John 10 forbids that such a salutation should be given to heretical teachers.
Ø “partaker” (2841) – participate, be a partaker in or of something
Ø “evil” (4190) – labor, sorrow, pain; evil in a moral or spiritual sense: wicked, malicious, mischievous
Ø “deeds” (2041) – act: performance, doing, labor, work
“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away” (2 Timothy 3:5).
Ø “form” (3446) – the external form of the Christian life with no inner power, the mere appearance or mask of pious conduct; an outward semblance of godliness.
Ø “godliness” (2150) – holiness, to worship, devotion, piety toward God; the doctrine which is according to godliness signifies that which is consistent with godliness, in contrast to false teachings.
Ø “denying” (720) – to reject, retract, renounce, deny, disown, disavow, refuse
Ø “power” (1411) – inherent power; being able, capable
Ø “turn away” (665) – to cause to turn away; to deflect, avoid
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8-9).
Ø “we” (2249) – only used when emphatic [expressed with emphasis], us, we, ourselves
Ø “preach any other gospel” (2097) – is almost always used of “the good news” concerning the Son of God as proclaimed in the gospel [exceptions are…Gal. 1:8]
Ø “preached” (2097) – to evangelize, declare, proclaim the good news
Ø “accursed” (331) – given up to a curse and destruction; the object on which the curse is laid; in Gal. 1:8-9, the apostle declares in the strongest manner that the gospel he preached was the one and only way of salvation, and that to preach another was to nullify the death of Christ.
Well are we to be surprised by this latest heresy from Tony Jones of the so called “emerging church?” We are clearly warned by God’s Word that this sort of thing would get more and more prominant in the days leading up to the second coming of our Lord and perhaps even more disturbing that more and more people would believe it. I’m going to say something that may cause a stir now. I don’t thing that any believer should pray for Tony Jones or any other false teacher who ought to know better and I site Rev.22:11 (read in context) in support.
The Bible warns us over and over again to be on guard against false teachers…the “Emergent Church” is full of such teachers who deny the Bible…ask yourself, where have we seen this before? why it is the major thing that the devil questioned with Eve in the garden and so it continues today and men like Jones have fallen for it just as Eve did so many years ago…follow this pied piper at your own peril…
Mr. Russell
I do not view youth as a liability nor an impediment to an interesting and lively debate.
A co-worker of mine approached me one day to inquire if I had read “The DaVinci Code” and what I thought of the bible. My response was to propose that if there was indeed a God, and He was omnipotent, would He allow His main instrument of communication to become corrupted? That pretty much sums up my view of the bible.
It sounds like we also agree on the sinfulness of man. Totally depraved. However, you state that the bible says the sins of the father “pass down” to the son. If you are referencing Exodus 20:5, Exodus 34:7, Numbers 14:18, or Deuteronomy 5:9, the term is “paqad” – translated “visiting” in the KJV. It is an interesting word and scholars do not agree on what exactly is meant here. I know that He didn’t use the word “yacar” – punish, or “chata” – blame. Whatever is meant, He states pretty clearly in Ezekiel 18 man’s personal responsibility is for his own sin, not his father’s.
Mr. O’Keefe,
I did not disparage you on account of your youth, nor did I describe you as impulsive and haughty. I simply noted that those qualities are often the hallmarks of the young. I did, however, regretfully call you a superior, self-righteous, jerk. I did that because you seem insecure in the force of your own argument and so resort to snide remarks. “(Did yo)u read the whole chapter??” “Maybe that page fell out, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt there.” Now, are those comments advancing your argument? Are they designed to help me to see my errors? Were they said in love? Would you talk to someone you respect that way? Your father? Your God? Are you advancing the gospel? Do you think you converted anyone on this site to your way of thinking? I came not to influence but to be persuaded and finally the only thing I am convinced of is your disdain for people who disagree with you. I imagine you will interpret this as an attack and seek to defend yourself. Taking a critical view of one’s character can be difficult and even painful, but necessary if you would like to be more effective.
Let the righteous strike me; It shall be a kindness. And let him rebuke me; It shall be as excellent oil; Let my head not refuse it. Ps 141:5
Haha
R. young I know I haven’t converted anyone, ever. That credit goes to God the Father and Him alone. My disdain is for those who abandon the canon of scripture, and if your statement of belief on that is true, which I pray it is, then I would never have had a quarrel with you. But the idea that one can live without sin, however hypothetical, is wrong and impossible. Its a simple and fundamental Christian belief and IS scriptural, as we tried to show you.
I seek not your approval, but the approval of my youth kids, their parents, my parents, my fellow bible believing Christians, my Pastors, my mentors, and above all of these, God.
I see daily growth and joy in the youth I work with and the Pastoral leadership has no issue with me or my, and i will agree with you here, abrasive ways. I understand sarcasm can offend, especially when on an impersonal medium such as the internet where you can not interpret tone, but yes all I do, I do with love for my God and His teachings and for the Kingdom.
True love for others includes never compromising scripture when approaching a controversial issue. Some of us have been created differently than the rest, and will debate and contend in different ways. Paul was quite abrasive in his methods of teaching and combating error, as was Christ.
So I simply wash my hands of this argument with you R. Young, because you seem unable to accept a view contrary to yours. You accuse me of the same action, but I and the others here who stand in agreement have scripture on our side, so I will not falter.
Maybe arguing with me feels like looking in a mirror.
God Bless
Why is it taht these topics nearly always seem to degenerate into arguments?
Mr. O’Keefe and Mr. Russell,
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
2 Thessalonians 3:13-15
Robert Young
tony, you’re starting to go too far with what you’re believing in. and to say that it’s absolutely true that original sin doesn’t exist is in itself a fault on your own belief system. since the emergent church is supposed to stand by that absolutes cannot be made so easily. so in this case, you’d have to be open to the idea still to original sin. won’t it be logically based that over thousands of years, original sin is still taught? can something like that what you may call ‘heretical’ have lasted all these years in Christianity? look at all the old teachings. the best scholars (yes, some even better than you guys) have stood by the doctrine of original sin.
did you even read your bible? original sin can be found in a lot of passages. in adam all die, in Christ there is life.
you’re dabbling on pelagianism, and that was already ruled out as heresy long ago.
Tony J.,
Romans 5: 12, 14 convict you of your apostasy…that is, if you were really one of us.
By trying to re write Holy Writ to fit your own passion and desire of not answering for your sin to a holy God, you have detracted from the Word of God and for that you are under a curse. You need to repent and believe the Gospel and contend for the faith (Jude).
Your man made philosophy will not serve you at the day of judgment.
Your will stand on your own and the Word of God convicts you or rejecting the final and finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross wherein he died for the sins of the world.
Yes Tony, there is original sin and you are a sinner in need of salvation. Your good works just won’t cut it.
Hello SIR,
I want to share my view of original sin as I interpret the bible. Original Sin is real, it exist, but not in the way that most people think it does. Original sin is merely the first sin ever committed, that is, by Adam and his lovely wife Eve, in the garden of Eden. And that’s all it means. Due to that sin, certain effects or consequences take place, such as pain during child labor and working the fields for food. Humans are born into the effects of that sin, NOT THE SIN ITSELF. Allow me to make an analogy. Let’s suppose for a moment that a woman has promiscuos sex with a man who turns out to have AIDS. In turn the woman becomes infected also. She finds out later that she is also pregnant. Now when the baby is born, it too has AIDS. The sin of the woman is fornication, the effect of that sin is AIDS. So her baby isn’t born with her sin but the effect of her sin. That is what happens with original sin. We are NOT born with the sin itself rather its effect (a likelihood and propensity to sin). In other words, I am stating that humans are in fact born sinless but due to the extreme sinful conditions into which we are born, the likelihood that we will sin becomes insurmountable and we sin.
Secondly, how can anyone who believes that almighty GOD who is all-loving, all-merciful and all-just could imput the sin of one person onto another person who had nothing to do with it. It is like my brother robbing and bank and the police arresting and encarcerating his entire family and finding them guilty of bank robbery. That is the exact thing that is occurring when we say the GOD does that. Does that seem like a fair, just and loving GOD.
honestly, the idea of original sin goes against many biblical ideas, and it seems like the idea that only Christ (and not the Father) forgives was added as an afterthought to keep the sheep from questioning why Adam wasn’t just forgiven instead of being eternally tortured just for eating an apple.
furthermore, since Adam tried to do what he perceived as “right” (by clothing himself) when he had the knowledge of both good AND evil seems to devalue the argument that mankind is inherently evil. also, since he didn’t have this knowledge BEFORE he ate the apple, how could he have known it was wrong, just because God “warned” him about it?
the Catholic church (which pretty much owned the Bible racket for countless centuries) has committed numerous heretical atrocities in their own right, including “editing the word of God” numerous times… how does any man see himself as fit to EDIT the word of God? who knows what was added into the scripture purely for deception?
This doctrine of original sin is completely unknown as a Jewish doctrine, not one of the Jewish systems — orthodox, coservative, liberal or whatever holds to this system. In fact, there is no reference to it even in the dead sea scrolls. Without the doctrine of original sin, the mary hearsays all fall flat because there is no need for a sinless mary demon, nor a need for an ever virgin. One need only read Eze 18 to see that biblically speaking the doctrine of original sin is biblically impossible.
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