Nick Fiedler is the latest to jump on the meme that emergent is fizzling, and he’s disappointed. I am loathe to respond to posts like his. In fact, I rarely read them because I find them utterly depressing, and they tend to occupy my mind in the place of the more noble and kingdom-based endeavors that I’d like to be focusing on. But because I am personally implicated in many of the comments, I thought I’d chime in. Others, like John D’Elia and Julie Clawson already have, as have Mike, Jonathan, Makeesha 1 and 2, Drew, Carol, Jonny.
First, some historical perspective (that a young buck like Nick lacks): there have been fallow times in emergent before this. For instance, in 2001, we left the auspices of Leadership Network, Andrew Jones had moved to the UK, and Mark Driscoll jumped ship (or was pushed overboard, depending on whom you ask). A group of us met at Tim Keel’s favorite monastery outside of Kansas City. For two days, we parceled out jobs — events, website, writing, networking, church planting — and left with a great deal of energy. And then…nothing happened. No one did anything they’d agreed to. Why? Because everyone was doing emergent at the margins of our lives, and so it wound up on the priority list below family, work, friendships, and many other things. It wasn’t until the Emergent Convention in 2003 that we gained any real steam, and that was only because of the energy of Mark Oestreicher and Youth Specialites. To be honest, I pretty much throught he thing was over until that convention.
Second, none of us signed up to start a movement, so your disappointment is misplaced. You wrote — and others have recently — that you hoped that emergent would revolutionize the church in America (in 5 years?!?), yet you dropped out of church and toured the world with a book contract under your arm. Meanwhile, every one of the founders of emergent is deeply engaged in a community of faith, doing the hard and private work of maintaining personal relationships and dealing with the messes that are inevitable when people live in community.
Third, I bet you’re not disappointed with Shane Claiborne. That’s because, to this point, Shane has made the very noble decision to live a chaste life, and he has committed his whole self to an irresistible revolution. Meanwhile, most of the founders of emergent are raising children and paying mortgages and coaching YMCA t-ball. Martin Luther King didn’t coach t-ball; neither did Ghandi. Start a revolution if you want, but that’s not a price that I’m willing to pay.
Fourth: In the comment section, you note your disappointment that no one took you up on your idea that we develop ” some sort of unemployment for pastors that got let go because of theological reasons.” To that I have two responses: 1) That’s what denominations do, and we’re not a denomination, and 2) If that what you want to see happen, then do it! That’s what we’ve done in emergent — we’ve tried to make things happen. Now that you’re back from your world tour, I’m looking forward to seeing what you do to make your corner of the world into what you want it to be.
Fifth, many of your commenters bemoan the fact that the leaders of emergent have “sold out” with book contracts and paid blogs. Since you are under contract to write a book, you know that there’s very little money in religious non-fiction writing, and the money is getting less. And I don’t know to whom they’re referring other than me. For the record, I make $5 per day blogging for Beliefnet. I’ve made less than $1,000 on book royalties so far this year. So everyone can stop casting aspersions on our finances.
Sixth, some commenters wonder why Brian, Doug, and I have “stepped back” from leadership. First of all, that’s not really true. And secondly, I’ve seen lots of guys who started organizations and ran them for the rest of their lives: Dobson, Falwell, Schuller, Wallis, etc. I have no interest in that.
Seventh, you and your commenters seem to suggest that, while we’ve made suggestions about changing the church in the past, we’ve quit doing that. Instead, all we do is fight the critics. In fact, Doug and I are throwing a big party this fall called Christianity21 — it will highlight many new voices in the movement and will give the microphone exclusively to women. Will you be there? Will any of the commenters who say that nothing new is happening and that new voices aren’t being heard? Those who started emergent were at the National ReEvaluation Forum in 1998; those who will take it into the next chapter will be at Christianity21.
Lots of stuff is happening:
- Amazing new voices have risen up — Nadia Bolz-Weber, Sara Miles, Pete Rollins
- I regularly read some blogs of people I think will be the next fresh voices.
- Books are probably not the future
- Tim Keel, Chris Seay, Karen Ward, and Danielle Shroyer are faithfully leading churches
- Gatherings are being planned
The only question for you, Nick, and for everyone else is, What part will you play?
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Hey Tony,
I did a video chat with nick regarding this whole deal. Check it out here:
http://www.findingrhythm.com/blog/?p=1745
Maybe you’ll find it of interest.
Peace,
Zach
Tony~
I think that you sort of nailed it on the head. When you are active in a faith community it is extremely difficult to devote your time to running everyone’s expectations of a movement. Plus, throwing family in there…well good luck at changing the whole world. It is hard enough to begin the process of transforming our own lives that I think that most of this disappointment distracts us from the purpose of loving mercy and walking humbly with God.
You also are right about how little anyone makes in publishing unless they are part of a small cadre of xian lite writers. I don’t think that most people understand this. I don’t think Kierkegaard was a sell out, or Calvin or Erasmus. Whether you write for a blog, with a crayon or publish a book I think it is the words that are written which are important, not the size of the contract.
At least this has stirred up some good posts.
Hey Tony,
You numbered your post so I think I will number my response.
1. I like you.
2. I hope that one day we can go hunting with your dog, even though I am from Alabama I have never shot a living thing.
3. I am glad Emergent is changing.
4. Although I fully support your need to do what you need to do, I wish that you were still the national co-ordinator of Emergent.
5. I am going through culture shock right now, not in big ways, but in ways that it is very weird to come back to a Christian nation when being in ‘atheist’ nations. (This makes coming back to the south weird.)
6. I have a blog that no one reads and one day I wrote about disappointment. Disappointment that was fostered because of my own unrealistic expectations.
7. I value the people in the trenches.
8. I don’t have space to talk about church, because I have separated myself from church.
9. I hope that the new grassroots way of Emergent will included communities that aren’t churches.
10. I am trying to find my place in this world. I have crossed off churches, but your question about what part am I going to play is what keeps me up at night. My wife is going to get a degree and join organizations that help the less fortunate, I don’t know what part I am going to play.
11. Maybe I am just wondering if there is a place in the conversation for someone that doesn’t want to be involved in church, and I am finding via email this week, that there is, in the very fringe grassroots level.
12. I am sorry if you were implicated by me or commenters that stopped by, as for them, I haven’t met most of them.
13. Sometimes I am disappointed with Shane Claiborne.
14. I am glad there is money to be made with books and writing, and capitalism, more power to us all.
15. I like that the conversation is a conversation, but I don’t want to have to come over to a comment section to talk with you.
16. I am sorry for offending you personally, if I have done that.
17. Can we go hunting sometime?
18. . . .
Tony, after watching Zach’s video, it dawned on me that Nick, in his own way, is volunteering to be the new Coordinator of Emergent! I think he would be perfect for job. Seriously though.
I’m sure you’re all familiar with that repetitive line about modern christianity being too oriented around personal salvation, a gospel of personal salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation, at the expense of the other things we read about in the NT. It’s difficult for us to move beyond being “me”-centered and to act like our own perceptions, experiences, and opinions are as limited as they really are. We can become prisoners of living inside ourselves.
You’ve heard that lick about living in a crass consumerist culture and how damaging it is to feed this selfish materialism and consumption with no regard for the unseen negative effects on others. And, perhaps, how this spirit has infected the church, where we merely become consumers of religious goods and services. We might start to give everything our own little consumer rating. “Cater to me!”
How about the cult of personality? Remember that tune by Living Color and Vernon Reid’s gnarly guitar riff? Yep.
I once heard a preacher say that if I were the only one to ever follow Jesus, he still would have died on the cross for just one person. When he was on the cross, I was on his mind. Interesting perspective.
The living Jesus has certainly delivered some serious personal salvation to me, and continues to do so. Nobody knows the trouble I’ve been… um, I mean “seen”. But the emergent conversation has saved me from having to walk away from church. I am willing to wrestle with the teachings of Jesus, difficult as they may be, but the kakamamie messages I hear from christians in the public sphere… ugh! Give me a break. Christians could stand to be more Jesus-centered. Jesus is attractional. He should be lifted up in more ways than cheesy emotive worship tunes or boring, dusty liturgy and restrictive traditions, structures, and, Lord have mercy!, church politics.
After doing some time as a worship leader in a “seeker sensitive” church [ugh!], I wandered in the wilderness for a time… dreaming of a church [literal dreams; I'm an old man] that incarnated interpretive faith community in different ways than I had witnessed. Specific dreams and specific ways. And then I stumbled into Solomon’s Porch and there were all of those dreams already in practice. Huh! I can only imagine.
If someone like Alan Hirsch, or Nick, above, or PJ says something like emergent “fails to offer a truly different process to match their convictions. We can talk about “postmodern theological hegemony” all day but in reality you walk into a significant emerging/ent church/gathering you will (in the end) find the same process with a different aesthetic. That is about it.” [hey PJ! Good to see you over here. :>)], they simply don’t know of what they speak. I’ve been living the dream for 8 years now.
I’m sorry Solomon’s Porch hasn’t become a model and exported its practices and style throughout the U.S. and the world. No I’m NOT!!! That approach is ridiculous, outmoded, and dysfunctional. We do the difficult and messy work of becoming a theological, interpretive community where all are welcomed and encouraged to participate. We are more than a Sunday service, a statement of faith, a set of doctrinal distinctives, a worship style, some reasoned intellectual propositions, or followers of one “responsible” white male pastor. We are all responsible for being implicated by the bible narrative and the inspiration of brave forebears in the faith, and putting that inspiration and faith into action.
Every individual person and faith community has to be responsible for figuring these difficult things out for themselves, doing the hard, messy work, and allowing the Spirit of Jesus to mold and guide and inspire. The end result should be a community that’s both greater than the sum of its parts and reflective, in some way, of the Kingdom I’m sure you’ve all read about. Not toxic and repressive and reflective of the dysfunctional aspects of the culture at large.
If emergent has failed, then at least it saved one person. And it was all worth it.
This is the bit I resonate with the most:
“You wrote — and others have recently — that you hoped that emergent would revolutionize the church in America (in 5 years?!?)”
If we really wanna be sure we’re following God, we need to move ssllloooowwwwllllyyyy, always in prayer and waiting on the Father. Otherwise we’ll strive and burnout and run out of steam. Something’s in the air; if it’s really a move of God (which I believe it is), it will happen in God’s timing, not with human ingenuity. In our modern era of instant coffee, microwaveable meals and twitter apps on your iphone, we expect everything to happen right away. God, by contrast, likes to let things marinade a little.
No “movement” that is ultimately built on the shifting sands of feelings and culture will last…at least in any recognizable form. Nor will movements that are based on the foundation of any ideologue. However, the church built by Jesus Christ will last, and it will be recognizable because it’s built on the unchanging foundation of His Word.
Is “emergent” part of Christ’s church? Or are they building on another foundation. Of course I must ask myself the same question every day.
I keep seeing the statement “8. I don’t have space to talk about church, because I have separated myself from church.”
He leaves the conversation, but then gets ticked that other people are talking about the things that he prefers.
Man…There are thousands, if not millions of churches out there slowly dying because they’ve replaced the leadership of Christ with a folk Christianity that rewards them for their judgment and political affiliation, and they only listen to the voices in their own congregation. Who will be the voice from the wilderness coming to them to tell them where they have strayed if everybody abandons them?
These are our brothers and sisters. Yes, they’re difficult, and cantankerous, and bent, and the whole “church politics” thing is nuts.
But abandoning them just leaves them wallowing in their situation. And leaving, and waiting for somebody else, somewhere else, to make a solution…
If the Emerging/Emergent movement is truly about starting a new church, then it’s a statement, not a conversation. And so far, the statements are not anything new, just in a different order.
What has God called you to do? Have you been listening to Him? Or just to your own discontent?
I am really proud of Shane for doing the right thing, and it’s a shame that you’re cutting him down.
A thought from an Anabaptist.
For what it’s worth, I’m a Mennonite who is also a fan of Anabaptist history. I’m also highly interested in emergent/emergence/the-large-discussion. At points I’ve found great similarities between what’s happening now and what happened about 500 years ago among the real radicals of the reformation.
The important thought is this. The first re-baptisms happened January 21, 1525. There was an amazing flurry of activity, writing, and martyrdom within the next 10 years. Seminal discussions about what in meant to follow Jesus in a new way happened in barns, bars, caves, and all kinds of other secret locations. Within 10 years the movement also experienced a massive breakdown that almost destroyed Anabaptism completely (namely the Anabaptist takeover of Munster: crazy story check it out sometime). Out of that disaster, Menno Simons (the man whose name led to the name “Mennonite”) worked diligently to re-form the Anabaptism and keep something very important alive.
My point is this. Just because emergent/emerging-church/whatever had a burst of energy and then is slowing down a bit doesn’t mean it’s dead. (Do note that Anabaptism is not dead and many of the EC people have relied heavily on hardcore Anabaptists like John Howard Yoder, Stanley Hauerwas, Glen Stassen and many others for inspiration for the current rethinking of church.) Also, as with Anabaptism, just because other people try to deny it’s existence, stamp it out, or declare it dead, doesn’t mean it is.
peace and courage,
alan stucky
http://www.thewanderingroad.wordpress.com
to todd: you assume that nick is walking away from some community in which he has a voice. but what if he’s walking away from someplace where he feels he is not valued, not heard?
not all of us who are not in church are “abandoning” others; it’s quite the other way around. we feel abandoned. we have invested our lives in ministry, in serving, in pouring into others, only to be shit on time and again.
of course, i have seen amazing things happen. and i’m grateful for “emergent” thinking, even though i still couldn’t tell you exactly what it is…and my husband has been part of this conversation since the beginning.
as someone who pretty much shares what is on her mind, i think for me emergent meant being able to be honest about my questions about God. it meant learning about community. what “brothers and sisters in Christ” really means.
in our 2-year quest for a church, i have become very disillusioned with all of the churches that call themselves “emergent,” who identify as such. it really doesn’t mean much to me anymore.
and i appreciate anyone who will say publicly on a blog to a group of ministers/leaders/Christian authors that he has walked away from the church, at least for now.
maybe we need to be focusing on WHY these people are walking away from church. because it’s not just nick. i could send you a list a mile long of people who fit into “emergent” mindsets who are no longer in a church, who sometimes tell us “we don’t even know if we are Christians anymore.”
lots of days, i feel like that too.
now, if we could just gather all these friends into one place, we’d have a kick-a@@ church…
We did a fairly decent two-part interview with Tony a couple of years ago on our podcast regarding Emergent, trying to understand it, challenging him and even fighting a little bit. It was fun, he was gracious and dished it out as much as he took it. You can go to iTunes and search for Stupid Church People and it should pop up somewhere in the list.
As for “doing something” – I’m involved in my community, I help coach my kids teams and I criticize the church for it’s failings. That is what I do!! Why do I have to start or get involved with a church for my voice or criticism to be valid. I also tend to criticize GM for it’s failings too, but it doesn’t mean I need to run out and start a car company. To me criticism (including the use of sarcasm and humor) is a necessary part of this process and it makes those who think they are the only ones “doing” anything think about what they are “doing”.
And as an aside: Kristi I love what you wrote. It’s for folks like you that i started my little stupid blog. Take care everyone.
For those of you thinking Emergent is dead please send me your books on the topic. I have pastors in Ghana West Africa that are asking for Mclaren and anything re emergent topics. Im serious about this the container leaves in 2 weeks there is time to send it to me!! I can take case lots too 4murray@gmail.com
thank you
steve murray
Tony… While I wouldn’t call myself “emergent” (because I’ve been trying to follow Jesus since 1973 and get a little freaked by labels), I certainly am glad for your voice and all emergent voices. Please don’t get discouraged, and don’t get too hung up on the critiques of others. Listen, sure. You might learn something. Take what is helpful and apply it. But don’t let the new frame turn into the old frame. That is, don’t get hung up on preserving something, holding onto something, or “defining” something. Isn’t that how our present Evangelical mess, at least in part, came into being?
To all — and myself — Define yourselves by serving Jesus, not by looking at and pointing out each other’s failures. Heck, we *all* have plenty of those. Wanna see mine? I can give you a long list, and my friends a longer one, and my enemies a reeeeeeaaaaallly long one (some of which I would contest!). Sound familiar?
Love God. Love your neighbor. Bear witness to that which is true. Pray for me as I try… I’m certainly praying for you… right now.
Blessings,
Jon Trott / Chicago
Do those who call themselves Emergent really accept Christ as Savior, love, worship and obey Him or do they design a new type of “Christ” in their minds and follow Him. Those practices used to be called idolatry when the “pagan” nations made up their own gods. Or is that where we are again?
Tony, Nick, Rick, Julie, Mike and all
I also feel a sense of loss with the change in Emergent. I am a BIG fan of the emergent reformation and hope and pray it continues to develop – even if there is no formal structure to Emergent Village.
I see 3 distinct groups still in the conversation:
1. The reformers – those who recognize the need for change in thought/theology/praxis/values/apologetics/etc and care deeply that Christianity has become “enslaved” by modern radical individualism and wants to free it. They are grieved that Christ has become a commodity in contemporary Christian culture and want to find a way out of the mess.
2. The Cartesian cult – those desperately trying to defend the accommodations made to modern philosophy over the past 500 years and want “Christian” thought to remain the same. These are the emergent fighters and defenders of “absolute truth” – the ones desperately trying to “pin it down” so they can expose the errors of emergent.
3. The late adopters – those who recognize that this is a significant conversation and not quite sure what side they are on but they want the conversation to continue so they can understand and learn more. Most recognize or feel that “something is wrong” but they aren’t quite sure what it is.
I actually hope and pray that the conversation continues for all 3 groups. I love the reformers, we need the critics, and the conversation is too valuable for the people listening in.
Nick – I share your frustration
Tony – I understand your dilemma
Emergent Leaders – I pray that you figure out a way to keep the conversation going.
Sorry last post is mine I didn’t mean for it to be anonymous
What is the PROPER definition of “Emergent?” If it means a radical, reformist vision of Christ in the New Millinium, then perhaps its time has come. But as far as “redefining” Christ, THAT has been “done to death” over the years. Christ is, was, and will be – Christ. He NEVER changes; it’s our perception of Him that takes on the “new” views of where He stands in the world today. If it means a “new” way of MISSIONS and proselytizing, then MAYBE we need to look into it. However, if it’s just a “money-maker,” leave it alone!!
I don’t really understand all this drama. Why do we need to label ourselves and make organizations and leadership teams or whatever else is going on in Emergent? It seems to me that worrying about creating more institutions and organizations and movements and groups and camps is only going to make people disappointed. Our salvation lies in Christ, not our specific theological tribes.
As a big fan of what I suppose can be considered emergent literature (McLaren, Bell, Claiborne, what have you), and somebody who is ever increasingly discontent with status-quo Christianity, I’m disappointed that the emergent response to the insufficient parts of the American church is simply to create another little party for like thinkers to group together and battle those in other camps.
Just love Jesus and serve Jesus, and have a dialogue in that context. These labels and arguments accomplish nothing but perpetuation of a broken system.
Hi, everyone.
I am new to this conversation, I hesitate to call it a movement. As I have read and thought and prayed about the emergent church I have become excited by the potential. I believe passionately that the emergent church (people like us) is called to bring about the presence of Christ within existing church structures. We are to embrace and encourage each other where we are. If this “conversation” becomes just another breakaway church movement it will be dead as a world wide phenomenon within 5 to 10 years.
Right now I am having conversations with people across the whole spectrum of Christianity and even beyond. I am connecting with people that I would find it hard to function with in a church context. These “conversations” are helping me come to the realization that my “understanding” of theology and doctrine is maybe not as important as supporting and in turn being supported by my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Given time, the “emerging” Christians will gather as we are drawn together not by doctrine or theology but out of a genuine relationally grounded care and love for one another. I believe that this will happen through a “gentle rain” rather than in a flood, at least I hope so.
I appreciate the honest and humility in point 4. I admire Shane and his vision greatly. My wife and I long to be used significantly by God, but with two little girls, a rented house still unsold in New Mexico while we serve in the UK, the price often feels so steep already that we struggle to think we could sacrifice any more. Thanks for validating our struggles.
Austin – I’m not emergent, nor do I want to be. But I was reading this thread and I thought it was hilarious that you are rebuking your leaders for “grouping together and battling those in other camps” instead of just “loving and serving Jesus”. Hmmm. Why even “battle” on this blog, then? Why not just “love and serve Jesus” and hope for the best instead of “battling”.
how can i get in on this $5 a day deal? wowo
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