Comments on: Society for Pentecostal Studies Paper: What Emergents Have to Learn from Pentecostals http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals Now THIS Is Some Theoblogy Fri, 10 Sep 2010 16:46:42 -0700 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Katie Jo Vasquez http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14592 Katie Jo Vasquez Mon, 29 Mar 2010 18:12:19 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14592 Hi Tony, hi all, Thanks for your thoughts both in this post and the "what Pentecostals have to learn from Emergents" post. I'm a Pentecostal… though typing those words still makes me cringe. I go to a very liberal seminary and hid my charismatic roots for my first few years here. I think what you say, Tony, about prejudice against tongue-talkers is very true. There are, of course, good reasons for the prejudice. Many Pentecostals, are sadly undereducated about their own tradition, have “gifts of the spirit,” but few fruits of the spirit, and don’t make a good attempt at explaining their insider experiences to outsiders. At the same time, Pentecostals live most of their faith life through experiences that are hard to explain and have no secular counterparts, so the misunderstanding is, well, understandable. I am new to the Emergent movement, but I think there are enough correlations between what Emergents believe and what their mainline roots taught to make a few generalizations. First, I have noticed the trend among liberal main-line churches to get theological resources from Christian sources, but when they need to be able to talk about any spiritual experience, they go to Eastern thought. I always wonder why they don't realize that there is an equally good, home-brewed Christian version of mystic spirituality found right in Pentecostalism! Second, in regard to your point about Emergents lacking a language to speak of the Spirit, I think the language comes from the experience. Though most Pentecostals use terms from the Bible to label the staple practices of charisma, much of the language comes from struggling to explain a move that the Spirit just made in your body or community. The language used is unique to each community and highly contextual (and I think that’s a good thing). For example, in different churches I have preached at, there were several terms for the same experience, some formal, some jovial; including: “slain in the Spirit,” “fallen in the Spirit,” “carpet time,” “resting in the Lord,” “Spirit legs,” being “overcome,” etc. These all refer to the experience when one is being prayed for by a pastor or leader and feels a rush of something from God come over them and is no longer able to stand; so they fall on the floor and lay there for a little while. (This is one of the experiences of charisma that most intimidates outsiders, but it can be a miraculous experience and can be explained in intelligent terms. For me, it is an example of how our theology comes from our body as much as from our mind- this is an idea common in feminist theology, see also the work of Melanie May, and it gives the believer a concrete experience of God’s power which cannot be controlled- which is beneficial to humility and future submission to God’s will.) I suppose, this is all to say, that if Emergents have never had this experience, they would never need words to describe it. But the catch-22 is that if there is no language to describe it, how will Emergents ever know about it in order to experience it? In my experience, it takes a few people who are willing to experiment with mystic experiences and do their best to describe what happened to others. As one who knows the abuses of the charismatic movement, I would caution others in adopting their language whole-hog. Much of the language is steeped in unhealthy ideas of the self and of power, and much of it is already so unattractive to non-believers as to make it not only useless, but damaging. The language wrought from your own experience seems not only timely, but faithful to the emergent worldview as a whole. What if the emergent movement is the place where people can both value education and let loose in mystical experiences? What if we interfaced with different types of Christians so much that there were whole bunches of people who spoke in tongues and voted democrat? Who believed in miracles and donated to medical advancement? Who balanced a hermeneutic of suspicion with a hermeneutic of commitment? I have been thinking for a while of writing a “guidebook” explaining the psychological benefits of Pentecostal experiences to liberals and secularists. It is rare that people ask for advice from Pentecostals, so you have given me new inspiration! Hi Tony, hi all,
Thanks for your thoughts both in this post and the “what Pentecostals have to learn from Emergents” post. I’m a Pentecostal… though typing those words still makes me cringe. I go to a very liberal seminary and hid my charismatic roots for my first few years here. I think what you say, Tony, about prejudice against tongue-talkers is very true. There are, of course, good reasons for the prejudice. Many Pentecostals, are sadly undereducated about their own tradition, have “gifts of the spirit,” but few fruits of the spirit, and don’t make a good attempt at explaining their insider experiences to outsiders. At the same time, Pentecostals live most of their faith life through experiences that are hard to explain and have no secular counterparts, so the misunderstanding is, well, understandable.
I am new to the Emergent movement, but I think there are enough correlations between what Emergents believe and what their mainline roots taught to make a few generalizations. First, I have noticed the trend among liberal main-line churches to get theological resources from Christian sources, but when they need to be able to talk about any spiritual experience, they go to Eastern thought. I always wonder why they don’t realize that there is an equally good, home-brewed Christian version of mystic spirituality found right in Pentecostalism!
Second, in regard to your point about Emergents lacking a language to speak of the Spirit, I think the language comes from the experience. Though most Pentecostals use terms from the Bible to label the staple practices of charisma, much of the language comes from struggling to explain a move that the Spirit just made in your body or community. The language used is unique to each community and highly contextual (and I think that’s a good thing). For example, in different churches I have preached at, there were several terms for the same experience, some formal, some jovial; including: “slain in the Spirit,” “fallen in the Spirit,” “carpet time,” “resting in the Lord,” “Spirit legs,” being “overcome,” etc. These all refer to the experience when one is being prayed for by a pastor or leader and feels a rush of something from God come over them and is no longer able to stand; so they fall on the floor and lay there for a little while. (This is one of the experiences of charisma that most intimidates outsiders, but it can be a miraculous experience and can be explained in intelligent terms. For me, it is an example of how our theology comes from our body as much as from our mind- this is an idea common in feminist theology, see also the work of Melanie May, and it gives the believer a concrete experience of God’s power which cannot be controlled- which is beneficial to humility and future submission to God’s will.)
I suppose, this is all to say, that if Emergents have never had this experience, they would never need words to describe it. But the catch-22 is that if there is no language to describe it, how will Emergents ever know about it in order to experience it? In my experience, it takes a few people who are willing to experiment with mystic experiences and do their best to describe what happened to others. As one who knows the abuses of the charismatic movement, I would caution others in adopting their language whole-hog. Much of the language is steeped in unhealthy ideas of the self and of power, and much of it is already so unattractive to non-believers as to make it not only useless, but damaging. The language wrought from your own experience seems not only timely, but faithful to the emergent worldview as a whole.
What if the emergent movement is the place where people can both value education and let loose in mystical experiences? What if we interfaced with different types of Christians so much that there were whole bunches of people who spoke in tongues and voted democrat? Who believed in miracles and donated to medical advancement? Who balanced a hermeneutic of suspicion with a hermeneutic of commitment?
I have been thinking for a while of writing a “guidebook” explaining the psychological benefits of Pentecostal experiences to liberals and secularists. It is rare that people ask for advice from Pentecostals, so you have given me new inspiration!

]]> By: Aideen http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14573 Aideen Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:20:34 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14573 Great blog post, and I'm very please people are talking about this. I identify as both Charismatic (Vineyard tradition) and Emergent and often find that ne'er the two shall meet. I was at an EC conference lately (which shall be nameless) and while I enjoyed it in many ways, I was shocked to find very little talk of prayer etc - and not once during the whole time I was there did we pray. It struck me that maybe in some EC circles people are too busy being cynical and/or deconstructing things to engage as wholeheartedly in prayer as they might do, and to me that's not engaging with your doubts that's *indulging* them (I know this is something of a strawman but it definitely has some root in true experience). If we are cut off from our lifesource like that how do we every expect to be effective? I'd definitely like to see some more dialogue on this subject. I like your follow-up post ("what pentecostals can learn from emergents") as well. Good on you! Great blog post, and I’m very please people are talking about this. I identify as both Charismatic (Vineyard tradition) and Emergent and often find that ne’er the two shall meet. I was at an EC conference lately (which shall be nameless) and while I enjoyed it in many ways, I was shocked to find very little talk of prayer etc – and not once during the whole time I was there did we pray. It struck me that maybe in some EC circles people are too busy being cynical and/or deconstructing things to engage as wholeheartedly in prayer as they might do, and to me that’s not engaging with your doubts that’s *indulging* them (I know this is something of a strawman but it definitely has some root in true experience). If we are cut off from our lifesource like that how do we every expect to be effective? I’d definitely like to see some more dialogue on this subject.

I like your follow-up post (“what pentecostals can learn from emergents”) as well. Good on you!

]]> By: PaulGlavic » Blog Archive » Emergents and Pentecostals: a match made in heaven http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14440 PaulGlavic » Blog Archive » Emergents and Pentecostals: a match made in heaven Sun, 14 Mar 2010 04:27:57 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14440 [...] for the Society for Pentecostal Studies. I want to link to my two favorite sections of the paper, “What Emergents Have to Learn from Pentecostals,” and “What Pentecostals Have to Learn from [...] [...] for the Society for Pentecostal Studies. I want to link to my two favorite sections of the paper, “What Emergents Have to Learn from Pentecostals,” and “What Pentecostals Have to Learn from [...]

]]> By: Joe Machuta http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14423 Joe Machuta Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:04:54 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14423 Hi Phil, You are definitely right. There is a very judgmental segment of evangelical Christianity which does not practice any charismata. It is definitely not solely a Pentecostal problem...and yet, I must still insist that it is a great problem in a lot of charismatic circles. Whether Pentecostal or Cessationist, it is a very negative practice and that is why I believe that the fruit of the Spirit is the best indicator to be used in discernment. Hi Phil,
You are definitely right. There is a very judgmental segment of evangelical Christianity which does not practice any charismata. It is definitely not solely a Pentecostal problem…and yet, I must still insist that it is a great problem in a lot of charismatic circles. Whether Pentecostal or Cessationist, it is a very negative practice and that is why I believe that the fruit of the Spirit is the best indicator to be used in discernment.

]]> By: Phil Wyman http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14422 Phil Wyman Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:05:57 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14422 Joe, This is a good point, but don't you think that the probelm is nearly as severe with reformed theologians (okay theologian is not quite the word here) as John MacArthur or Hank Hannegraaf? Calling people out is problem whether one thinks they are either more spiritual or more orthodox. This is not solely a Pentecostal problem. Joe,

This is a good point, but don’t you think that the probelm is nearly as severe with reformed theologians (okay theologian is not quite the word here) as John MacArthur or Hank Hannegraaf? Calling people out is problem whether one thinks they are either more spiritual or more orthodox. This is not solely a Pentecostal problem.

]]> By: Joe Machuta http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14420 Joe Machuta Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:12:17 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14420 While there are some very good things that come out of charismatic Spirit driven worship and practice...I do not want to appear anti-spirit as I am not and, listen to the Lord speak to me often via his Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I have witnessed some very negative results from the alleged move of the spirit. People who have been called out and falsely accused by so-called modern prophets. The bottom line should be that, the move of the Spirit will produce and emphasize the fruit of the Spirit and there is way too much condemnation presented in the name of the Holy Spirit. Discernment is really key. A great question to ask is; --Does the movement of the sprit result in love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, kindness and self control? While there are some very good things that come out of charismatic Spirit driven worship and practice…I do not want to appear anti-spirit as I am not and, listen to the Lord speak to me often via his Holy Spirit. On the other hand, I have witnessed some very negative results from the alleged move of the spirit. People who have been called out and falsely accused by so-called modern prophets.

The bottom line should be that, the move of the Spirit will produce and emphasize the fruit of the Spirit and there is way too much condemnation presented in the name of the Holy Spirit. Discernment is really key. A great question to ask is; –Does the movement of the sprit result in love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, kindness and self control?

]]> By: Aideen http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14413 Aideen Tue, 09 Mar 2010 07:35:59 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14413 Nice article. Charismatic emergent here and more than happy to help in the endeavour! Nice article. Charismatic emergent here and more than happy to help in the endeavour!

]]> By: Steve Ganz http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14412 Steve Ganz Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:24:30 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14412 For several years now I have been trying to bridge the emergent/pentecostal divide without success. I have been part of various brands of Pentecostalism since I met the Lord in 1970. Yet I came from a socially liberal family and I never 'fit' with most of the fine people I worshiped God with. So about 7 years ago I became interested in our local emergent scene. I enjoyed the freedom to ask questions and not know all the answers. Yet when someone found out my 'secret' that I actually believed that God talked with me, that I actually talked with God in English and tongues, and that sometimes the Lord would use me prophetically, the budding friendship was over. I'm not so sure that the emergent folks really want to know the moving of the Spirit. Why? Because they will then have to believe, without reservation, what they read in scripture. Paul wrote the Galatians that to start in the Spirit you must believe what you hear. At this stage of the story it seems to me that the emergent are still too busy trying on different ways of looking at God. Their hermeneutic of suspicion needs to become, as Richard Hays once wrote, a hermeneutic of faith. For several years now I have been trying to bridge the emergent/pentecostal divide without success. I have been part of various brands of Pentecostalism since I met the Lord in 1970. Yet I came from a socially liberal family and I never ‘fit’ with most of the fine people I worshiped God with. So about 7 years ago I became interested in our local emergent scene. I enjoyed the freedom to ask questions and not know all the answers. Yet when someone found out my ‘secret’ that I actually believed that God talked with me, that I actually talked with God in English and tongues, and that sometimes the Lord would use me prophetically, the budding friendship was over. I’m not so sure that the emergent folks really want to know the moving of the Spirit. Why? Because they will then have to believe, without reservation, what they read in scripture. Paul wrote the Galatians that to start in the Spirit you must believe what you hear. At this stage of the story it seems to me that the emergent are still too busy trying on different ways of looking at God. Their hermeneutic of suspicion needs to become, as Richard Hays once wrote, a hermeneutic of faith.

]]> By: Links for March 8th | jonathan stegall: creative tension http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14409 Links for March 8th | jonathan stegall: creative tension Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:03:06 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14409 [...] Society for Pentecostal Studies Paper: What Emergents Have to Learn from Pentecostals | Tony Jones [...] [...] Society for Pentecostal Studies Paper: What Emergents Have to Learn from Pentecostals | Tony Jones [...]

]]> By: Daily Links – 3.8.10 | Community of the Risen http://blog.tonyj.net/2010/03/society-for-pentecostal-studies-paper-what-emergents-have-to-learn-from-pentecostals/comment-page-1/#comment-14408 Daily Links – 3.8.10 | Community of the Risen Mon, 08 Mar 2010 22:12:18 +0000 http://blog.tonyj.net/?p=1670#comment-14408 [...] a “robust pneumatology,” rather a language for it, within the emergent movement in What Emergents Have to Learn From Pentecostals.  He writes, “I can tell you that I and other emergents experience God’s activity today, [...] [...] a “robust pneumatology,” rather a language for it, within the emergent movement in What Emergents Have to Learn From Pentecostals.  He writes, “I can tell you that I and other emergents experience God’s activity today, [...]

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